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09 December 2012 @ 04:46 pm
Jack choices concering Ianto and Gwen  
This is not a Ianto versus Gwen topic in who you pick this is all about Jack and choices i think he makes. to me in certain eps the seems to be a moment were Jack makes a choice between the Ianto or Gwen and aside from Meat i think Jack chooses Ianto and i have always found it hard to understand why Jack does this, if he loves Gwen.
This topic has come up for me again because i'm doing a rewatch of Torchwood at the moment and it starts with They Keep Killing Suzie when Jack instead of staying with Gwen who has almost dies goes to talk to Ianto
Moment 2 Combat Jack tells Gwen to go home to Rhys and takes Ianto with him to the hospital
Moment 3 End Of Days when Jack revives after his 3 days, he comes upstairs and openly kisses Ianto
Moment 4 Kiss Kiss Bang Bang there is two which makes it confusing the first being Jack's "i came back for you" but then we have the engagement ring scene with Gwen back to Ianto and asking him out on a date
Moment 5 Adam to me the mirror each other in this ep Ianto and Gwen , Gwens change excepted by Jack but Ianto's change not excepted but also Boardroom both Gwen and Ianto open up about their feelings for Jack but Jack chooses Ianto
Moment 6 Something Borrowed while not a good moment with the dance, Jack could have stop dancing with Ianto but he choose to stay
Moment 7 Adrift Gwen is shut out, Ianto is included upstairs after she walks in on them
Moment 8 Exit Wounds after let out of the cells Gwen flies at Jack, but he moves her aside to hug Ianto

One again i really don't want an one versus the other thing cause it's not about Gwen or Ianto, just about Jack and why Jack makes the choices he makes
rabeckarabecka on December 9th, 2012 08:06 am (UTC)
One early one that you missed was Ghost Machine and the aftermath of the gun training. Gwen was giving clear signals that she was willing to stay, but Jack told her to go home to Rhys.

My take on Jack and Gwen is that there's attraction between them, and if Gwen shared Jack's 51st century values, he probably would have acted on it. However, he obviously wants Gwen to maintain her relationship with Rhys and he's been around long enough to know that 21st century attitudes aren't cavalier about monogamy, so he backs off. I think he knows that he can't and/or won't give Gwen the type of stable, committed relationship she needs, and won't risk destroying what she has.

I think that, in general, Jack would be perfectly willing to sleep with any of the team, but is quite aware of the cultural problems. Gwen and Owen both would probably not be able to keep it out of the workplace, and would very possibly get inappropriate when they got angry. Both of them tend to go off on a regular basis. Tosh is another issue entirely. Since Jack has control over her life, any approach could be seen as dub-con, no matter how unintended.

With Ianto, I'd guess it started as a combination of attraction, affection, horniness, fun, stress relief, etc. Pick any you like. And Ianto was capable of sleeping with Jack and still staying professional during work hours. That's pretty much how I see season 1.

Later, I think there's a growing closeness, but the show gave us very little view of Jack and Ianto outside of TW. Compare it to all the scenes we got of Gwen and Rhys. Sigh... One of the most telling scenes to me was in Adam, when Ianto was convinced he was a murderer, and Jack refused to believe it. No. Doubt. Whatsoever. Despite the alien lie detector. Jack just ignored it and immediately went looking for other explanations. That's a pretty damn high level of trust, and it's a shame that they both had to forget it.

For me, the best explanation of Jack I've ever seen (and one that matches my own view of him, but says it much, much better than I ever could) is here:
Adaptation by filomena
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 10th, 2012 04:21 am (UTC)
Thank you for your reply , you have a very different view of Jack than i do and Gwen for that matter, not sure where Gwen and monogamy come into play. But Jack also, i find Jack more talk than action he uses he sexuality to get want he wants from people now whether that's to charm them or keep them away, he does both but i find him very monogamous there isn't anything to suggest that he strays when he has a partner

But what i was more talking about was it looks like to me at these certain moments Jack could pick Ianto or Gwen the choice is there for him to make, he chooses Ianto and why does he chose Ianto ? I don't know

I know there is the "thing" and i call it a thing, cause i don't get that bit either LOL that Jack rejects Gwen only so she can stay "normal" for him and that means her being with Rhys. But exactly how does Jack expect this to work, when as her Boss he gets Gwen to lie to Rhys on a daily bases, he allows her to take work home at Christmas time for more lies with a person in Rhys home with Emma in Out Of Time and there is danger in Rhys home with Fairies in Small World and Rhys still gets lied to because of Jack's orders, that doesn't sound like Gwen and Rhys have any "normal" relationship i've heard of, so what Jack is on about , no idea LOL

So Jack rejecting Gwen purely for that reason "Rhys and normal" doesn't work for me. There has to be another reason and i do agree with your "work theory" cause there is no way Gwen wouldn't bring any personal problems to the forefront at work, she openly does that whether it's yelling at Rhys or not caring that everyone knows about her and Owen or uses Jack's feelings for her to get what she wants.

But i don't think Ianto is any sort of easy option for Jack they have some pretty big history there with Lisa smack in the middle of them. But there is a trust in Ianto from Jack that's different to everyone else. I get that Ianto and Jack started as "fun times" with no strings but didn't stay that way. But Jack is picking Ianto before "fun times" like the first moment i mentioned in They Keep Killing Suzie, Gwen nearly died big romantic song in background yet Jack goes to chat to Ianto or i guess you could say before that with Jack kissing an unconscious Ianto in Cyberwoman

I find it a mystery , i guess cause i don't think we get an answer from Jack, Ianto never seems to be Jack second choice , if anything Ianto is Jack's first choice because Jack doesn't choose Gwen aside from Meat but the why ? is the harder bit
You People And Your Quaint Little Categories: Jack with red lips by Songstressiconsjoanne_c on December 10th, 2012 03:47 am (UTC)
I usually put it down to that it's different types of love (both equally valid) and he doesn't want to rock things with Rhys for Gwen.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 10th, 2012 04:30 am (UTC)
Thanks for your reply and yes there is very different types of love and to me you can see that, Tosh and Owen Jack always seems more parental to them, Ianto and Gwen it's sexual , the Doctor is hero worship

One of the best examples of the different type of loves Jack shows is in Fragments when he has two guys on top of him, with Ianto there is a sexual attraction but with Owen it's comfort

As for the Gwen and Rhys and Jack is protective of their relationship of whatever he is doing, doesn't work for me if you read above why, as her Boss and the rules of TW add to the already existing tension that Gwen creates between her and Rhys so i don't see how Jack helps there LOL

And yes both are valid and equal feelings like i said this really isn't about Ianto or Gwen , just why when we see a choice do you think Jack chooses Ianto or even do you think no he doesn't. It's more about Jack and why Jack makes the choices he does
coldwater1010 on December 10th, 2012 09:07 am (UTC)
As for the Gwen and Rhys and Jack is protective of their relationship of whatever he is doing, doesn't work for me if you read above why, as her Boss and the rules of TW add to the already existing tension that Gwen creates between her and Rhys so i don't see how Jack helps there LOL

I don't think Jack thinks this through at all. And for someone with his level of life experience he comes off as a bit myopic and naive. I'm not sure how he thinks getting her involved in TW then expecting her to lie to Rhys all the time about every aspect of her job or retcon him whenever he stumbles into anything and on top of that expects her to still prioritise Jack over him as we see in Meat is supposed to foster anything, but a disaster between her and Rhys. I mean he's basically sulking because she's finally doing what he's been pressing her to do all this time. Prioritise her relationship with Rhys over TW. And in the end I think it's mostly a failed experiment anyway.Rhys doesn't keep her grounded in the 'normal' world. She drags him into the TW crazy with her. So that by s4 instead of leading a normal life with her husband and new baby they're all in hiding and in fear of their lives and the lack of 'normal' is basically being passed down to Anwen. I mean other than the meta that Gwen ( and possibly Rhys) will never be killed off because the show is about her and she's RTD's favourite all Jack really guaranteed is not only will Gwen likely be never safe again, but Rhys and her child.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 10th, 2012 09:55 pm (UTC)
Thanks for you reply. That's my problem with this Jack needs Gwen to be with Rhys for her to stay normal and Jack needs that normality. How on any level does Jack believe this is working myopic or naive seems kind, it's more huh LOL Even if he can't see his own rules affecting their relationship, he knows all about Gwen and Owen and throws that in her face in End Of Days

Meat is another big discussion for me while agreeing Jack sulks that Gwen picked Rhys, i don't think Gwen did, i think Gwen picked Gwen
solitary summersolitary_summer on December 10th, 2012 07:33 am (UTC)
IMO mainly because Jack knew or feared that Gwen would lose what he needed most from her, i.e., a normality and humanity that wasn't warped by Torchwood, if she became too involved with him and lost her connection to the world outside, and for him this connection, the symbol of that normality, was her relationship with Rhys. Add to that that because of his immortality he had a bad track-record with relationships (even before CoE there was Small Worlds and Estelle), and in S1 was ready to leave both Torchwood and Earth at the drop of a hat, he probably didn't want to ruin her relationship when he couldn't offer her something equal.

And with Gwen the question of a genuine, more or less conventional relationship would have been on the table from the start, while with Ianto it wasn't until CoE. I think Jack and Ianto happened because they were both lonely, hurt people, who understood each other on a basic level and were looking for some sort of connection and comfort they couldn't easily get anywhere else, but nothing beyond that, at least not for a while. If Ianto had been in a happy relationship, I don't think Jack would have ruined that either, no matter how much he fancied him.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 10th, 2012 10:01 pm (UTC)
Thanks for your reply i guess i just don't except the "normality" reason, nothing Jack does supports that except telling Gwen to stay with Rhys a couple of times

And i do understand that Jack and Ianto start from loneliness but that start comes from Ianto not Jack and it's Jack's reasonings that i'm trying to understand
solitary summersolitary_summer on December 11th, 2012 12:27 am (UTC)
At the end of Day One, where the whole question of what it means to be human was first raised in connection with Jack and Torchwood, Jack says, "Go home, Gwen Cooper. Eat lasagne. Kiss your boyfriend. Be normal. For me," so I do think that did play a part, at least in the beginning. Of course sooner or later Jack would have realised that it didn't really work like that, but looking at the first episode of MD, I don't think he ever got over the urge to protect Gwen from Torchwood, even if that wasn't what she wanted or needed.

And re. Jack/Ianto, I think that's precisely the point that it was Ianto who started it. IMO it played a huge part that Ianto took so many decisions effectively out of Jack's hands, in a way that allowed Jack to go along with it and kid himself that he wasn't making any decisions at all. Gwen kept pushing and was clearly waiting for Jack to make a move, to say something, which forced him to consciously think about what kind of a relationship he could offer her, and made him decide she would probably be happier with Rhys. Ianto, on the other hand, managed to slip under Jack's radar, clearly knew Jack's vulnerabilities and weaknesses rather well, and for a long time gave Jack something he wanted/needed while to all appearances not really expecting anything from him, or at least nothing more than Jack was willing to give. In CoE, when Ianto finally also starts pushing Jack out of his comfort zone, we get the same slightly uncomfortable situation we've already seen in quite a few Jack/Gwen scenes, because for once Jack is actually forced to think about their relationship as a relationship, about their future, and to confront his immortality-related relationship issues. And significantly it's once again Ianto who makes a decision that Jack goes along with.

In the end it probably comes down to the fact that Gwen triggered Jack's relationship issues a lot more than Ianto did. Ianto never gave Jack a reason to say no.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 01:21 am (UTC)
Thank you that is an interesting view that Jack was forced to think about things with Gwen but could just be with Ianto and to me that's is why Jack and Gwen would never work they are too similar in personality, but when you look at who they are with Ianto and Rhys are similar

But are we saying that Jack only has two choices he can be with Gwen or Ianto that's it, he can't get up and find someone outside of work , so Ianto will do, cause he doesn't pressure me. Or why not Tosh or Owen if Jack needs to be with someone in the Hub. There has to be a reason Jack is with Ianto

I don't find Ianto is easy choice for Jack, he still has some major secrets to keep from Ianto with the whole Dying/Not that he doesn't have to do with Gwen, there is Lisa and what happened still there, if anything Gwen is a much easy choice out of the two, cause she is willing to get rid of Rhys for this new life but Jack will not go there how does he know Rhys is great, he is watching Gwen have an affair with Owen what's Jack protecting

As for MD Gwen is all Jack has left, he doesn't have anyone else, i don't know that comes into play anymore cause they are both very jazzed about being "Torchwood" again , i find Jack is more about keeping the connection to Gwen then about protecting her. If anything the tables are turned and Jack is looking to Gwen to protect him, now that he is the mortal one

As for Day One and Jack's reaction and what he says throughout is very confusing, because Gwen constantly berates all of TW on every level but Jack seems to get more enamoured by that, i and then is so in awe about a peck which is just plain weird from Gwen who is giving their Boss a peck on their first day, so she throws open the invite that they could be sexually but when Jack says the whole "go home" speech to me Jack is getting rid of her and her demanding answers about who exactly he is. She might know he comes back from dying but he doesn't tell her anything else

Edited at 2012-12-11 01:24 am (UTC)
coldwater1010 on December 11th, 2012 01:56 am (UTC)
I think KKBB is Jack understanding precisely that Ianto requires something more serious which may be why I don't have a lot of tolerance for his behaviour with Ianto post s1. To me at that point he could have done what he does with Gwen and decided that he wasn't the man for that and left well alone and the relationship might possibly have ended there, but he doesn't. He pushes it forward and then apparently plays coy. I think that's the thing that bothers me about their relationship that apparently he's willing to consider Gwen's needs and whether he can give her what she wants even if he doesn't understand exactly what those needs are, but apparently never thinks it's worth doing the same with Ianto even when he's deciding things between them should be more serious.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 02:33 am (UTC)
Totally agree that it does seem more one sided that Ianto cares for Jack and Jack expect this but doesn't think about Ianto and what he needs but mostly i think that comes from the "odd moments" in season 2 with Gwen. In Season 1 i had no problem it all seemed kinda understandable aside from Gwen being the moral authority for Jack that was and is whacked , sorry but i don't get that not from anything Gwen has done, that all seems more like Jack's fantasyland but where he got it from aside from RTD don't know, cause it's not from Gwen it's from Jack

But in Season 2 if you take out the Gwen and Jack moments , Jack is very much with Ianto and they have a complete partnership both personally and professionally but then all of a sudden and i'll leave out Meat again, sorry but to me so much of that is out of context it needs it's own topic but the "odd moments" don't even work within the eps they are just plonked there

Taking KKBB for example, Jack clearly says he came back for Ianto, it's the only real personal moment in that scene they others are all talking about Jack the Boss being gone, Ianto makes it personal and Jack replies, then covers himself by saying all of you and throughout the ep ex or not Jack focuses on Ianto for anything personal, the VM moment, who is Hart, the office date, up on the roof at no stage is Jack showing any other personal thing for anyone but Ianto except the ring scene. So now Jack is not only back for Gwen but she is the reason he could come back telling her everything after she demands again and she pays no attention and the moment becomes an angsty Jack moment cause Gwen is now engaged to Rhys and after that Jack thinks of Gwen when ? Nope no other time that i can think of work wise yes, but not personally. Work wise he tells her about Hart, work wise who's the Boss banter, work wise how do we save Gwen but there isn't one more personal connect from Jack in the whole ep

So i'm not sure why those Jack and Gwen moments are given more meaning than a range of moments Jack has with Ianto and there is a range in the eps in Season 2 in particular but just an odd one here and there and forgotten next scene with Gwen

Continuing with KKBB as the example who is Gwen in love with you could say Jack, because of the ring scene and before she is about to enter the Rift she has a message for Jack but Jack won't make the first move and Rhys is her fallback guy cause she is used to him. But that doesn't go with the woman who is so proud of Rhys and his new job and couldn't sound happier about they life together, it's just odd LOL i don't have a better word for it

Season 1 i think is more about two broken people with Jack and Ianto but within that broken part there is a trust they keep giving each other despite what's happening and does pull them apart. I think Ianto doesn't realise his feelings until CJH then doesn't know what to do with them and Jack doesn't until his gone and that's why he is different with Ianto in Season 2 but for all of that and everything that happens in End Of Days it's still Ianto that Jack reaches out to in a different personal way to the others including Gwen who sat there for 3 days apparently saving Jack through faith and after a thank you Jack goes up and kisses Ianto, he made another choice LOL
coldwater1010 on December 10th, 2012 10:59 am (UTC)
Except for the dance scene in Something Borrowed I'm not sure I see any of these moments as Jack choosing Ianto over Gwen or even really Jack choosing Gwen over Ianto and that's not because I think this show is particularly good at showing it's possible to love more than one person at once because I actually think they kind of suck at that at least when it comes to romantic feelings. They can't seem to show love in one relationship without undercutting or basically ignoring the existence of the other relationship. The only time I think they made a decent stab of it to be honest is ironically with Ianto. In that they seem able to acknowledge his feelings for Jack without diminishing what he felt for Lisa. I just think other motivations not necessarily romantic ones are going on in some of those scenes.

I think if you go by the basic suggestion that he didn't think he could give Gwen what she needed i.e the relationship she deserved and he believed Rhys could, (ignoring the fact that his crystal ball must have told him that because it's hard to see how he develops so much insight into a relationship and a person (Rhys) he has no real knowledge of for the longest time)and he needed her to keep that 'normal' perspective for him and the job then it follows that he was never going to 'chose' Gwen, no matter what his feelings for her, because the only way it was going to happen was if he decided that her relationship with Rhys didn't matter any more. So from the moment he first tells her to not let it drift he seems to be telling her it's not going to happen. So whatever eyechatter he had across the room with her or sexual tension moments they shared it was basically all going to end the same way with him sending her back to Rhys. So all those moments you list in the end are just Jack reinforcing that. I may love/need you, but I can't give you what you want so look elsewhere.

With Ianto I don't think he planned a relationship with him so other than the scenes in KKBB and possibly EOD I just don't see him making any conscious decisions with regards to him. I also don't know if Jack ever really loves him or is ever in love with him, but I do think he always wants him and that's pretty much independent of whatever is going on between Jack and Gwen. The most interesting/telling aspect for me in terms of their relationship happens in Fragments because for most of it Jack is adament that he won't hire Ianto and even in the dinosaur segment he's unwilling to hire him until his attraction for him kicks in and then whatever misgivings he has and insistence that there's no place for him he basically makes space for him because he fancies him. And I kind of see that pattern with them at other points.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 10th, 2012 10:35 pm (UTC)
Ianto and Lisa is amazing well done and continues until Ianto dies which is mind blowing for a show that lacks continuity and i think it re- enforces Ianto love for Jack because we see already know how Ianto loves

I think they do unfortunately write for the Main Stars rather than the character therefore creating situations that don't work, so continuing the Jack and Gwen thing particularly in Season 2 makes for some very odd moments that seem to come from no -where especially from Jack

But even with the idea that Jack loves Gwen but will never be with her cause he believes he can't give her what she needs, why would Jack think Ianto is the easy option. And i really do think they show Jack choosing and it's starts before we see Ianto taking it to another level.

What do you make of what i see as the first choice we see the end of They Keep Killing Suzie, big moment love song in the background Gwen nearly died, why doesn't Jack stay near her in the Hub why leave to go down to the Morgue where Ianto is and allow his feelings about what has just happened come out. That to me is already showing a choice by Jack before Ianto has made it a sexual thing

As for Fragments i disagree with when and why Jack hires Ianto, i think it's when Ianto says "your not going to help me catch this pterodactyl then" cause from that moment Jack blabbing all manner of things that he shouldn't cause Ianto intrigues him before they have a "moment" and shows this different trust Jack continually shows in Ianto . And no i don't think their relationship was planned, it evolved. But there has to be a reason that Jack goes to Ianto aside from he's hot, there's too much trust from Jack
coldwater1010 on December 11th, 2012 02:44 am (UTC)
why would Jack think Ianto is the easy option. And i really do think they show Jack choosing and it's starts before we see Ianto taking it to another level.

Because the show does? I have no idea. I think it seems to boil down to the idea that Ianto would be greatful for whatever Jack gives him. Very little about Ianto screams casual to me. But then to me sleeping with a subordinate in a team that small when your team is already pretty fractured and apparently has trust issues seems like a bad decision so I don't exactly think Jack is prone to making good decisions when it comes to his team.

What do you make of what i see as the first choice we see the end of They Keep Killing Suzie, big moment love song in the background Gwen nearly died, why doesn't Jack stay near her in the Hub why leave to go down to the Morgue where Ianto is and allow his feelings about what has just happened come out. That to me is already showing a choice by Jack before Ianto has made it a sexual thing

In TKKS I think Jack 'chooses' to go to Ianto because he's the one dealing with Suzie's body and Suzie is probably the person most on his mind at that moment. I don't think he's expecting sex when he goes to him because he seems a bit too bemused initially by what Ianto's actually offering. It's also possible he does want someone to vent to a little and he can't do that with Gwen because any comfort would have to be about her since she's the one who almost died. Plus despite the romantic music I don't think the scene with Jack and Gwen is particularly romantic. Jack seems more stern and aloof than in love in that moment so maybe he hasn't entirely forgiven her for defying him and Tosh and Owen are nearby so he doesn't feel obligated to go to her?

itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 03:36 am (UTC)
Unfortunately there does seem to be lots of " because the show does" LOL. I try very hard not to pay attention to what RTD or anyone else says if i need their clarification they haven't told me a very good story to start with. I know sorta what they have said but i don't take it into account, i just watch or read or listen to the stories and take it from there.

I think the idea that Ianto should be grateful for getting Jack or whatever comes from to me this idea that Ianto is the quiet reserved one and Jack is the loud assertive one. Ianto may be quiet compared to Jack and his loud personality and Jack is Ianto Boss and treats Jack with the respect that title holds but when does Ianto backdown to Jack ? I don't think it's ever happened and yet Jack on the other hand is very reliant on Ianto being there next to him and backing him up , i find it odd that Ianto the weaker or more desperate of the two. I think they have the most equal relationship out of all of them and not just romantically but work wise as well they know who they are together.

I don't find Ianto an easy choice for Jack at all, one they work together and more closely than the others as Ianto seems to be Jack's PA, two trust issues and huge trust issues which they overcome but are there including Lisa, Jack Dying/Not , TW1 and TW1 brings up all sorts of things because Ianto wasn't trained under Jack's Torchwood and what Jack thinks you should know about TW, Ianto can spot the differences. As i mentioned to Solitary- summer Gwen is a far easy option for Jack if he needs someone at work option, no history behind them,she knows he biggest secret already, happy to be in this new life, ready to cheat/ dump Rhys , more equal job description. cause that's Gwens job to be Jack's backup

As for TKKS that despite through the whole ep it's Suzie is evil Gwen must be saved cause she is the innocent one otherwise quite a blood thirsty way to think about someone who was your team mate for years compared to the chick who has been there for 3 months and is urging you to kill her again LOL
vibe we have, it's the fact that Jack does let his emotions out around Ianto that's the thing, not Ianto upping it into a proposition is where i see Jack making his choice. Jack isn't going down there as the Boss, he is going down there as Jack, who is tired and Suzie hurt him and Jack reaches out to Ianto for comfort and Ianto makes that comfort physical but Jack reaches out first emotionally despite what he and Ianto have been through.

The music is supposed to tell us something when you have the line "i found the one i've been waiting for " which did make me go huh, Gwen is the one, i thought Jack was waiting for the Doctor but it does seem like Gwen is supposed to be the one who will fix Jack but Jack leaves to find someone else and he chose Ianto LOL
coldwater1010 on December 11th, 2012 01:44 pm (UTC)
I think the idea that Ianto should be grateful for getting Jack or whatever comes from to me this idea that Ianto is the quiet reserved one and Jack is the loud assertive one.

I do think there's an assumption that because he's quiet and defers to Jack as his boss that he's essentially passive and won't rock the boat. I'm not even sure that's borne out in their working relationship and the little we see of him he tends to be more proactive than not so I don't really see that as a given.

As for TKKS that despite through the whole ep it's Suzie is evil Gwen must be saved cause she is the innocent one otherwise quite a blood thirsty way to think about someone who was your team mate for years compared to the chick who has been there for 3 months and is urging you to kill her again LOL

The thing is TW Cardiff is a small team. It isn't even a small team within a larger whole and so there has to be a lot of reliance on and trust in each other for the team to work effectively, even if they don't think of themselves as close friends and so the death of Suzie and the reasons it happens should probably have a way bigger impact on the team than the show ever suggests it does. And especially for Jack since she was his second in command which suggests a pretty high level of trust and reliance, but the only impact the show really focuses on is how it affects Gwen. So I think it's easy to assume that outweighs any impact Suzie's actions might have had on the rest of the team and especially Jack. I do think Jack reaches out to someone. I don't think Jack's really thinking that person 'has' to be Ianto or that it 'has' to be Gwen. Just someone who seems willing to listen and to me it makes sense that it isn't Gwen because any comfort in the end would probably have to focus more on her than him? And Ianto is both the one dealing with Suzie's body and the only one on his own. Is it the first time Jack's ever done that? Certainly in terms of their on-screen actions that seems to be the case, but Ianto seems to be in the Hub even after the others are gone so maybe not.

The music is romantic and their staring happens at that particular point in the song and I'm sure it is supposed to be telling us something very profound about their bond. I'm just not sure the look from both of them conveys the musical message. Is that deliberate, poor acting, me just not getting what a 'you're the only one for me' look is supposed to look like? One hand not knowing what the other is supposed to be doing? Anything is possible.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 11:47 pm (UTC)
Agreed there is an odd assumption about Ianto that doesn't coincide with his actions. Like if you are loud , you are the stronger person but looking at all Ianto has been through , he might break but then he picks himself back up again, that shows his strength and i don't think you could be with Jack and except all of his baggage and not be a strong person, so far from what Jack has said, Ianto has been the only one willing to do that, people always leave him or he leaves them but Jack's immortality has been a thing , and it never has been for Ianto, no matter how much of Jack's past has hit them in the face

Suzie is another great discussion, why was she Jack's second, what about the rest of the team, i don't understand Suzie complex about Gwen in TKKS she meet her twice. Let alone Gwen's tirade at Jack about Suzie

As for the looks while the music plays Gwen is to me hero worship goo goo eyed love Jack is her one. Jack on the other had looks tired, like he wished she was but no and i can't explain the no, since from DO Gwen is supposed to be his one

Edited at 2012-12-11 11:48 pm (UTC)
sammydragoncatsammydragoncat on December 11th, 2012 03:06 am (UTC)
The show doesn't give us enough in-site into Jack's reasoning to explain most of Jack's choices, but I don't think Gwen is ever a choice of Jack (weather or not he ever got together with Ianto or if Rhys is with Gwen or not). There is so much of future events and or Jack's past that factor into his personal and professional choices that we are never told about, that it's impossible to tell what's going on in his head.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 03:42 am (UTC)
So you don't think there are moments when it's a choice between the two of them for Jack ?

I think that is a problem the show does have for the major character that the show revolves around we aren't allowed to see Jack that often more the face Jack puts on for everyone in that way Jack and Ianto are very similar people. I think we needed to see more of Jack experiences affecting him
sammydragoncatsammydragoncat on December 11th, 2012 04:47 am (UTC)
Romantically or sexually - no, for companionship or friendship or someone to talk to, yes I do think he chose Ianto over Gwen or Tosh or Owen - but I think that has to do with Gwen not being able to understand or accept certain aspects of Jack or Torchwood; for instance Ianto's knowledge of Flat Holm isn't that Jack trust him above the others (although I do think he does trust him to keep his secrets), it has more to do with Ianto having been apart of TW1 and accepting the need for such a place - if you need help with something, you are naturally going to turn to someone you think can understand and not judge but work out a way to help.

I think alot of his choices and decisions have to do with his knowledge of his team and their individual personalities and believing he knows how they will react to certain situations - yes sometimes they surprise him and he gets it wrong, but alot of the time I think he does get it right. Combine that with his past and knowledge of the future (remember according to Dr Who canon, Torchwood still exists far into the future - and their is no way as a Time Agent Jack is not carrying around some knowledge about some fixed points in Torchwood's history) their is no way to completely understand his reasoning.
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 11th, 2012 11:58 pm (UTC)
I have always thought from the beginning in EC there is a very different relationship between Jack and Ianto to Jack and the team partly because of Ianto job but also Jack seems to constantly place a lot of trust in Ianto and even though that trust gets very broken Jack is willing to get it back again and the same with Ianto, they seem to rely on each other the most

What do think Gwen won't except in TW or Jack ? using Flat Holm as your example i thought she only took the case to prove Andy wrong then it was all about proving Jack wrong , not saying she didn't care about Nikki or Jonah just her need to be right got in the way of what was the right thing to do

I don't know enough about DW to remember that TW still exists i guess the question is especially after MD what is Torchwood is that Jack code word for Jack now ? Cause it isn't what Queen Victoria set up anymore, well not in MD anyway that's all gone now
sammydragoncatsammydragoncat on December 12th, 2012 03:22 am (UTC)
To start with I don't count Miracle Day as part of Dr Who or proper TW cannon - because if you go by Dr Who, which TW is suppose to be a spin-off of their is no way that Jack's immortality is can be given to anyone from a his blood or another bodily fluids. He gets his immortality thru the Time Vortex, and the Doctor can't "fix him", also that plot line just contradicts Children of Earth. If he was able to pass on his immortality in any way, then his daughter and grandson would have both been immortal, so to me Miracle Day has nothing to do with Torchwood, despite the fact that Jack was in it.

Their are several examples of Gwen not accepting the darker aspects of TW, in season 1, season 2 and Children of Earth (which canon wise I have problems with too). With Flat Holm she insists that the families of the rift victims deserve to be told - they tell her not too, she does it anyway and Nikki & Jonah suffer. If she accepted that Jack knew what he was doing, and that their are reasons for doing it that way she would have dropped it - like Tosh and Owen did during the meeting. The darker aspects like sacrificing Jasmine to the "fairies" or sacrificing the orphans in 1968, both TW and UNIT are involve in that(Children of Earth) - I could go on, their are a lot of examples of her not accepting the fact that a happy ending is just not possible, you can't always save the day, sometimes you have to just minimize your losses.

As for Ianto, yes I agree Jack does have a different relationship with him than the others - but Ianto, because of TW1, also knows more about TW and the running of TW than the others. Tosh and Owen are so into their specialties, that they do not often have to look at the bigger picture, and I don't care if you work for a secret organization, the government or the private sector Admin and their assistants always have to have the bigger picture in mind. They do the budget, pay the bills, make sure everything is working the way it should. Really good admin dept. know just about everything that is going on. So, yes Jack would rely more on Ianto for things (regardless of weather or not they ever got involved with each other) - making sure everything runs smoothly is Ianto's job, he needs to know everything that goes on at TW. Jack knew that one day the Doctor would show up, he had to make sure that someone knew to pay the bills at Flat Holm, or who their contact at UNIT is, or when Tosh's contract was up and what needed to be done to keep her out of a UNIT prison when he disappeared.

With them being in a physical or romantic relationship, yes I think that Jack did open up more to Ianto on a personal level, than he did with the others. I once read where someone compared Jack and Ianto were compared to the "parents" of TW - Jack being the father and Ianto more of the mother figure and everyone else filling the rolls of the good daughter or the rebellious teenager, they made a really good argument for it (I can't remember where I read it).

I hope this make sense

edited because I can't seem to type today.

Edited at 2012-12-12 03:37 am (UTC)
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on December 12th, 2012 07:45 am (UTC)
I agree completely with about Miracle Day but it's there now unfortunately so canon to me, did it make sense , no, should they have called it something else other than Torchwood, yes cause i would have known it wasn't going to be Torchwood anymore and i wouldn't have watched LOL

As for Gwen while she gets angry at things, i have yet to see her offer any solution , she just blames Jack and i don't know if that's her unwillingness to except the darker side or Jack is her hero and he should live up to it and isn't, which she is getting more angry about is confusing.

I would agree with the "Parents" role at TW and Jack being the Dad and Ianto being the Mum . That would be another interesting discussion that's 3 different ones that have popped during this one. First one being who is Jack in Meat, Second one being Suzie and why was she Jack's second and her place in TW and now this one, if Jack and Ianto are Mum and Dad why and who would the others be LOL
itsmeyouseeitsmeyousee on June 6th, 2014 04:18 am (UTC)
I don't know if i find it terrible , more confusing. You can understand Gwen better i think. Her actions and reactions are very clearly written. But Jack's not so much and as the supposed lead of the show that is just plain weird LOL.

There seems to be some sort of desperation in Jack's feelings for Gwen that actually make no sense to me. Even if you accept that Gwen was at first Jack's touch with humanity or heart of Torchwood or whatever term is used. Clearly she can't still be that, she couldn't be that after working there for a while. Jack had Gwen lying on a daily basis to everyone she loved. How do you kept being this power of kindness if you are treating your loved ones with constant deceit.

Look at her wedding, no - one in her Family will remember that day all because Gwen is stubborn and wasn't thinking about anyone else but herself. Sorry but to me that's not someone i would describe as the heart of anything, so why does Jack ?

And that's the million dollar question understanding Jack ? LOL